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16.02.2011 - Montesquieu The Spirit of Laws I
Kiki Walpanheim: hi gilles Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Kiki Walpanheim: hi gaya Gilles Kuhn: hello birric kiki gaya Kiki Walpanheim: well i need to go, can't stay now....see u Birric Forcella: The wolf is getting domesticated Gilles Kuhn: dont think so too much dear fox Gilles Kuhn: ok nick will arrive shortly Gilles Kuhn: ok as this is the first seminar of the season i will need to do some formalities Gilles Kuhn: all here will be logged by my personnal secret service and published in the web by being here you accept that Gilles Kuhn: so now we can begin first i do presume that you have all read or at least obtain the text we will discuss today? Gaya Ethaniel: :) Nick Cassavetes: sorry, I didn't log on to SL a while ... Birric Forcella: yes Gilles Kuhn: ok nick i give you a notecard Nick Cassavetes: ㋡ Nick Cassavetes: thx druth Vlodovic: sry, could I get one too? Gilles Kuhn: sure Gaya Ethaniel: slow in responding some RL going on druth Vlodovic: ty Gilles Kuhn: ok first i selected the author and text due to the fact we agreed on making a serie on political philosophy Nick Cassavetes: oh, I thought this was on free will and QM Gilles Kuhn: no we have finished that serie last year Nick Cassavetes: ok, to bad Gilles Kuhn: i need from time to time to change subject a manner of exercing free will ;-) Nick Cassavetes: is there a website, or a reference for that? Nick Cassavetes: ㋡ Nick Cassavetes: hehe Birric Forcella: Law is always about free will. QM is optional Gilles Kuhn: too because this book and author is the creator of a very fundamental principle which is the concept of separetion of power Nick Cassavetes: yups Gilles Kuhn: which is for us something now almost self evident but was quite revolutionnary for the time Gilles Kuhn: remember that montesquieu lived under the french quite absolute monarchy in the XVIII century Gilles Kuhn: ok then we will consider the concept of laws as exposed nesrinata: hi every body Gilles Kuhn: hello Nick Cassavetes: hi nesrinata nesrinata: hi nick Gilles Kuhn: montesqieu distinguish between natural laws done by god or the fatality if you are atheist... and positive laws nesrinata: so what u guyz talking about Gilles Kuhn: the former are dependent of the coherence of the physical world Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Hi Giles, everyone Gilles Kuhn: the later come from the intelligence of us and the fact our free will have separeted us of the creator (or the animal state for the atheist) nesrinata: hi Alaya Kumaki: hi Gaya Ethaniel: Our wiki address for previous meetings - http://philosophical-seminar.wikia.com/ Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): But when he distinguished between natural law and God's law, wasn't itin the same way that Aquinas did, Giles? nesrinata: go get dressed alaya lol Gilles Kuhn: oh indeed i was about to comment on the influence Gilles Kuhn: you may notice in the text that montesquei assume in fact modern philosophy descartes style Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Well, wasn't he more empirical, though? Gilles Kuhn: and indeed aquinas style for the theological part as it seems that god is someone binded by logical laws Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Or am I just thinking that abecause he resembled LOcke in poilitical philosophy Gilles Kuhn: i prefer to concentrate on the text for a befgin auguste Gilles Kuhn: you pointed very well aquinas influence about the fact that natural laws are fact of necessity for montesqieu Gaya Ethaniel: Nakey - it's General here so please dress even minimum if not, I will have to ask you to leave. Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): OK, Gaya; it was M the last time I was here, so I didn't know. Gilles Kuhn: which is not a wonder as he -- sorry gaya but i dont think thats relevant we used to have a naked statue here before didnt we?-- Gaya Ethaniel: We changed since someone naked gave us some problems ... Nick Cassavetes: hmm Alaya Kumaki: are we in a church? Gilles Kuhn: well so the natural state is at odd with the positive one.... Nick Cassavetes: I would like to second Gilles on the non-discrimination Gilles Kuhn: those are voxel i dont see a problem Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Well, I don't want any trouble, I just didn't know. Nick Cassavetes: allthouugh she could have a seat ;) druth Vlodovic: lol, I've always said that laws don't exist until they are broken, Gaya Ethaniel: Well this is hosted by Kira and we have changed our policy regarding the maturity ratings. Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Chill; this avatar can dress; I just won't come as my alt here Gaya Ethaniel: If you're unhappy with that, please IM me and I will pass the message but meanwhile, please get dressed a bit Nakey. Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :) Gilles Kuhn: well i was not informed about those change and i must add that i dont see how a naked voxel not performing obscene act is a maturity problem Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I'm working on it Gaya. Gilles Kuhn: so after this quite ridiculous modesty incident can we proceed? Alaya Kumaki: lol Nick Cassavetes: please Gaya Ethaniel: Mind your language Gilles ... Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Thank you Giles, I appreciate the support. Gilles Kuhn: ok so but remember is only a general introduction of it i beg your perdon? Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Giles, that's the trouble with "G," it's also censorship of language Gilles Kuhn: well it is most definitely not my habit to censor nor to be censored and now i would like to continue the semainr Nick Cassavetes: lol, every philosophy place is starting to turn into kindergarden :( Gilles Kuhn: well i assure you this seminar will not Nick Cassavetes: ㋡ Nick Cassavetes: ok! Birric Forcella: Let's use the French and and German expressions for dirty things. Birric Forcella: Merde Alaya Kumaki: pantoute Gilles Kuhn: so everybody understand the originally thomas of aquina notion of god being bounded by his own natural laws ? Alaya Kumaki: this mean not dirty birric Alaya Kumaki: merde mean good luck in french Gilles Kuhn: since cambronne its in use yes Birric Forcella: They know what I mean Gilles Kuhn: so as merde is part of the natural world we know merde is only subjected to it Alaya Kumaki: thomas , was cannonised,,, Nick Cassavetes: Thomas though evil was a lack of good Birric Forcella: Did god create the laws of nature, or is he limited by them - and after they were created, was god then limited by them? Nick Cassavetes: so I have trouble with the logic applying it to itself Gilles Kuhn: but the producter of shit if is an animal too is only submitted to the natural law as is unable to create or understand a positive one ? its that ok ? Gilles Kuhn: good question birric Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): It doesn't matter for Montisqieu Birric Forcella: Actually, it does Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): The point is that God's law and natural law are both a matter of neceissity and bind us, morteals, to the same thing Teleo Aeon: we are required to take on board the assumptions behind these remarkaable metaphysics of Law, for the sake of argument I take it ? Nick Cassavetes: well summarised Nakey Gilles Kuhn: god actually in htis system is bound by logic laws that emanate from him and by coherence can only create a thing that correespond to his nature so the laws of the universe are the result of the coherence and omniscience omnipotence of god Nick Cassavetes: I don't see the relevance of a God ebing constraint by his own logic too Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): For Montesqueu, you mean? Nick Cassavetes: Gilles, Thomas was Theistic of course, nit deistic, so I don;t understand athia at all Nick Cassavetes: this Nick Cassavetes: sorry Nick Cassavetes: God could intervene for Thomas Gilles Kuhn: well that is aquinate position but remember that god is only constrained by himself and so that he will not act against his own creation as it cannot be other than perfect which is btw a leibnizian argument Nick Cassavetes: and he did Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Nick, you're thinking of Augustine; for Aquinas, God was logical Gilles Kuhn: notice that thomas got the idea of ibn rushd Gilles Kuhn: indeed auguste Gilles Kuhn: (ibn rushd = averoes) Alaya Kumaki: ahah usually its frome central asia yes Nick Cassavetes: hmm druth Vlodovic: to avoid a feeling of nervous chaos people like to bind things within limits, especially something as scary as a god Birric Forcella: Okay, now that we have sorted this out . . . let's go on Nick Cassavetes: ㋡ Nick Cassavetes: logic scares me more then freedom Alaya Kumaki: whateer the gods decisions, if yu havea good doctor.... Gilles Kuhn: btw its a very french position as since william of occam the anglo saxon world was more thinking that god as absolutely impossible to graps for our reason the idea of the absolute other cannot be nor constrained by logic nor by our reasonning whihc position gave way to pure empiricism Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Right, the French has always valued logic over will Gilles Kuhn: yes but thats important as montesquieu seems to hold the position as that relation of justice preexist the creation by us of positive laws Birric Forcella: I merely asked a yes or no question. I didn't mean to have Tom and Gus thrown at me. Gilles Kuhn: too we need to see that for him laws are existing per se or per god (natural ones) Birric Forcella: There is a difference between the Laws of Nature and Natural Law Gilles Kuhn: ooops can you re ask birric? Birric Forcella: Never mind. druth Vlodovic: a scary thought, since then we can justify following laws to the point that their intent is destroyed, or even worked against Gilles Kuhn: yes let be clear i speak of laws of nature atm not of the notion of "natural law" which dont intervene yet Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): I have to go; sorry. Something in rl has come up. Great job so far, Giles. Thank you! Gilles Kuhn: bye auguste dont get a cold ;-) Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): Never, Giles Nakey Girl (auguste.wolfhunter): :) Birric Forcella: Iceblocks don't get colds Gilles Kuhn: well in resume notice that Mont has a mechaniucal universe reuled by created laws as his view of the natural world Gilles Kuhn: now human for different reason dont abide to only natural laws Alaya Kumaki: god as a gouvwernor is this form natural laws or the laws of nature? Gilles Kuhn: as body they do (alas) but has mind no because they are at odds with god (old christian idea..) Gilles Kuhn: laws of nature alkaya druth Vlodovic: this would necessitate us defining any law we want to break as being a law of the mind Gilles Kuhn: ok now let examine how laws arrive in our human world following mont Gilles Kuhn: mont consider in a very XVIII fashion the idea of man before society Gilles Kuhn: (which as we now know is only a thought experiment ) Gilles Kuhn: hobbes before him stated that the natural state for mankind before society was war of all against all Birric Forcella: Well, it creates a very simple distinction. Laws we cannot break are laws of nature. Laws we can break are those extended laws of god. Gilles Kuhn: mon ttake exactly the reverse position Gilles Kuhn: arguing that a lonely man in state of nature will be fearfull and aiming at his preservation Gilles Kuhn: and taking as argument how savage found in forest react Teleo Aeon: if you argue that God may have subsequently been limited by his own laws, it's then just a case of whether you can interpret real world affairs to follow the logic of the limitation of Gods own limited imposition (or) get mans affairs to follow the metaphysical limitation you just had the idea to place in the game.. (or) remove any limitation for God in regard to limitation. which ever is most expedient for your purposes. Gilles Kuhn: let say that i doub he ever met a savage in a forest but well... Birric Forcella: Yes, I think this idea of warfare of all against all - homo hominem lupus - belongs to a later stage of development. I think in original societies people were each others' helpers. On a deeper level, I think all related mindsets can be divided quite neatly into people who see others as sources of pleasure and people who see others as sources of pain and danger. Gilles Kuhn: teleo remembr that laws as we understand them in nature are causality law so are in time god is in eternity and create time so he coexist with all his creation in a single etern,al moment so causality is complete as he coexist with all the times too Alaya Kumaki: they sure did met savage,s they imported them from canada Teleo Aeon: there is a huge amount of theological assumptions bound up with how we interpret causality.. of that I have little doubt Gilles Kuhn: indeed birric i wanted to make a pause to discuss that very important problem which is can we know a "natural " state for men and if yes is it relevant about the choice of laws or governemetn system in societies? Teleo Aeon: how it acytually fits together is another matter though imo Gilles Kuhn: Mont like rousseau say that societies create the capacity for war and agression Teleo Aeon: that's why Ioriginally asked about the taking on board of assumptions,for the sake of argument druth Vlodovic: well, is a "natural" state one of want, or does it arise only when all needs are fulfilled? Gilles Kuhn: when hobbes a contrario say that society limit the war of all against all druth Vlodovic: societies are created, in part, for the purpose of fulfilling needs Alaya Kumaki: mon dosnt see the mans as bdsm practisionner as hobbes do Birric Forcella: Yes, Gilles, I am going to harp on that point a lot. However, I think it is less important if there ever was a "natural" state or an "age of gold." I think those assumptions are not needed to assert that man is (or can be) moving towards a desirable "natural" state in the future. Gilles Kuhn: and other question is natural law admitting such a thing exist independantly of our minds what will in a smoooth progression influence postiive laws or are those totally artificial Teleo Aeon: It's an assumption to think that society stops the war of all against all.. but I can take it on board for the sake of argument.. I don't especially agree with the assumption Alaya Kumaki: no more than rousseau who depicted them as fearfull beeing, bdsm as well, post trauma consequences druth Vlodovic: :) I know a fellow who believes that societies, and politics, exist for the purpose of creating wars Teleo Aeon: theological influences asside Teleo Aeon: in repsect ot historical Birric Forcella: But I personally think that sometime in the past (maybe 6000 years ago) a bad accident happened and there was a fork in the road - and people took the wrong way, toward violence. Gilles Kuhn: well rousseau was near that position taking mont argument to his extreme conclusion Teleo Aeon: violence is a very complicated concept imo.. it isn't only human on human violence Gilles Kuhn: ok but now we have anthropological evidence that human have ALWAYS liveed in societies even if the concept of laws is relatively recent Birric Forcella: You Teleo Aeon: but that doesn't address what you are saying Birric.. so I may as well put it asside druth Vlodovic: I find that "you can always depend on the kindness of strangers" and it is usually those who think that they can benefit from violence (and related) who perform it against you Teleo Aeon: imho.. laws are a type of abstract metaphysics Teleo Aeon: but not solely Birric Forcella: You're right, of course, Teleo. That is why I said that regardless of what we come from, you can formulate a utopic vision. On the other hand, there are clear echos of a more peaceful past - like matricarchical societies. Teleo Aeon: I think there is little reason to disgaree Birric. peace is as imaginabe as is violence Gilles Kuhn: Mont rousseau and kant had no ideas about what we call now cultural anthropology and thus made assumption we now know as toi be incorrect of the world BUT that dont mean that the argument they made from those assumption are incorrect as they can be conceived as thought experiment all Rawls ideas are based on that in fact for instance Alaya Kumaki: he pointed out that the system were made of freedom , but under rules inflicted on others... as he was satiric about paris, fashions and luxurious way fo life Alaya Kumaki: the paris living room romanesque times Gilles Kuhn: birric matriarchal societies were considered by the greek to be an absolute horror from the past that s btw the theme (the real one) of sophocles antigones Birric Forcella: Yes, Gilles, but I had more things like Reich's/Malinowski's study of the Trobriands etc. in mind. Gilles Kuhn: and about "savage " the most "primitive societies " we know are in fact extremely violent even if the violence is always diffuse and never collective druth Vlodovic: when I look at (largely) matriarchal organizations in our world I wonder about how utopic these matriarchal societies could have been Birric Forcella: Well, regardless of what was - as Goethe commands: "Upwards and Onwards" Gilles Kuhn: lol birric i rermember an ethologist who asked by a female student a question to the effect are they any mammmals societies that are matriarchal he responded yes the hyenas are... Teleo Aeon: primative societies are particularly violent because the tools of violence are primative.. and you can't carry violence out by other means and carry it out at a distance Alaya Kumaki: so what he observe was during his time, about the system of society build on virtue , theologic as republican, honnor, as in the monrchic model,and fear, as in the despotism system, this was observation, not really a definition of what is the fundamental nature od laws, but an socio historical depiction Birric Forcella: Clearly, we can create new and better things. As you said, Mont envisioned the division of powers, unheard of until then. Gilles Kuhn: actually the greeks in their myth show the creation of laws as a manner to escape violence to solve conflicts Gilles Kuhn: yes alaya but now we are only treating the first part of the first book Teleo Aeon: well myth might be the operative word there Gilles :) Gilles Kuhn: definitely they were Alaya Kumaki: what he seems to ask, there, isa to softeen the monrachic system,,,,,,.. to make a combination of 2 system of laws Birric Forcella: I think laws always chain the best of us - much like Prometheus. Alaya Kumaki: a constitutional debut Gilles Kuhn: primitive societies confound myth reality nature and society in a unseperated way Teleo Aeon: that is the symbol of being bonded to a quasi state in fact Birric Alaya Kumaki: constitutionnal society were the natural ones druth Vlodovic: I suspect it has to do with effectiveness, if society allows violence then anyone not practicing it is at a disadvantage, we use laws to limit violence and make it less adaptive than maladaptive, hoping to reduce overall levels of violence, "primitive" societies would depend more on personal connections to enforcment, and so the most violent would win out Alaya Kumaki: witout monarch Gilles Kuhn: and no constitution require laws who require separation from the myth world Teleo Aeon: there are different and worse kinds of violence dreamed up in the minds of men than may be metered out buy the club or sword Alaya Kumaki: but a far society living more with natures woudnt be called priomitive in montesquieux writting Alaya Kumaki: he wasnt reading darwin Gilles Kuhn: indeeed druth you may notice that the first laws in athens were to prohibit private justice vendetta and criminalise homicide giving the state the responsability to punish the murderer which was done by families before (thus favorising a armed aristocracy) Alaya Kumaki: primitv is a relativism cultural Gilles Kuhn: well mont as curious idea about the iroquois i dont think they eated their captive ... Teleo Aeon: those laws only pertained to the aristocracy Gilles Kuhn: alaya he would have had an hard time to read darwin indeed.... Alaya Kumaki: he was from out of paris, and was comparing others city, ..society...as we know, not really assimilated to the french monarchy ,,and their ideology Birric Forcella: I see it as a move by the state to grab the monopoly on violence. I think it was an ambiguous move at best. Personally, I think, it was an extremely bad move. Gilles Kuhn: but do you thinks that nature laws or primitive organisation of humanity is relevant about political system choice now? Teleo Aeon: it was sort of structurally inevitable imo Birric.. the problem these days is not to keep them persisting in the same state they have been for thousands of years Gilles Kuhn: which is obiously hobbes mont rousseau etc position... Alaya Kumaki: the fatall tools, that is ,the legislatif and executif justice one, in one persons hands.... as a legislator, was questionned druth Vlodovic: I suspect I get attacked far less as a member of an oppressive regieme than I would as a free person in an anarchy ;-/ Alaya Kumaki: in the kings hand as god schosens one, was questioned there Teleo Aeon: what makes you suspect that druth ? Gilles Kuhn: i will personnaly defend the contrary for me laws are purely artificials creations and therefore dont need to refer to any former state of things or refer to natural laws (which btw i consider as human creations as well) Alaya Kumaki: yu suspect or yu tried it? druth? Birric Forcella: I doubt that, Druth druth Vlodovic: people are people, referring back to "natural laws" is a good way of mentally testing laws before passing them, and judging the prformance of existing laws druth Vlodovic: suspect, I've never lived in an anarchy Birric Forcella: The state may create some retail security. However, unfortunately, it also engages in wholesale violece quite frequently Gilles Kuhn: druth actually human right were done to protect the individual from the leviathan state if you are attack by one guy you have some survival prospect if by the state..... Teleo Aeon: the state sanctions mass violence on an industrial scale Teleo Aeon: for the sake of obtaining resource Alaya Kumaki: there is a diference between both side, the free man and the monarchial abiding one,, the first acept the fre amn if he climb to the power, but never fom the lower part, as valuable,,,, but the king even in the place of the free man, as he sees a previous slave , would be safe, he is eaten usually...by them as crocodile Teleo Aeon: arguable fact Birric Forcella: I think the wholesale violence, made possible by the state monopoly of violence (via other states, as well via its citizens) is what causes the huge body counts of holocausts, wars, and democide. Gilles Kuhn: actually hobbes was right in that state monopolyse violence but as there are more than one they use violence between them .... Alaya Kumaki: a king cant get out in the street asa free man anymore Gilles Kuhn: agreed birric Alaya Kumaki: * Birric Forcella: via = vis-a-vis druth Vlodovic: a constitution is a law for the law holders, (the state) it is using the old cure on a higher level Teleo Aeon: it would be nice if the monopoly of violence was run by people who seem incapable of doing anythng other than setting the conditions in which industrial violence is the prefered route for all manor of profiteering.. and in our names to boot Teleo Aeon: wasn't* Alaya Kumaki: well this is whar occur, the cast out, became only cappable of tyranny to ge t something....... and they usually usurpated the kings places later..... repeating all sort of bdsm paterns Teleo Aeon: this is often why I am loathed to take on the underlying assumptions in many cases Alaya Kumaki: but not froma free man pisition Birric Forcella: Here come the anti-capitalists Alaya Kumaki: from a cast out one, .... Alaya Kumaki: the antityranism Gilles Kuhn: speaking of that you noticed that mont said that war was to be done by making as little injury as possible which was in fact what was done in his time in europe the gap with clauzewitz less than a century after is incredible as he said that war imply unlimited application of force and violence Alaya Kumaki: capital is ok Nick Cassavetes: sorry, I have to go, see you all next time Teleo Aeon: bye Nick Gilles Kuhn: and indeed the time is due to close the formal part Gilles Kuhn: we will continue this next week i will however confirm date by group notice about that anyone want a group invite? druth Vlodovic: limited warfare is a matter of both sides feeling fairly secure in their survival and keeping their respective eyes on the ball Teleo Aeon: I think I'm in the group Gilles Gilles Kuhn: you are teleo Teleo Aeon: nods :) druth Vlodovic: ok, ty, I thought you meant the kira cafe group Gaya Ethaniel: bye